Welcome to the Courage of a Leader podcast. This is where you hear real-life stories of top leaders achieving extraordinary results, and you get practical advice and techniques you can immediately apply for your own success. This is where you will get inspired and take bold, courageous action. I'm so glad you can join us. I'm your host, Amy Riley. Now, are you ready to step into the full power of your leadership and achieve the results you care about most. Let's ignite the courage of a leader. Katie O'Brien Cesarini, thank you for being on the Courage of a Leader podcast today.

Thank you. I'm thrilled to have this conversation, Amy. Yes, me too. I'm excited to have it. I think it's important to have it. I'm excited to have it with you. We are going to be talking about giving feedback. We're going to be talking about giving feedback. Giving feedback, we know it's important to do, but often we hesitate to do it. It does take courage. Handling a challenging reaction that we might get takes courage. So today we're going to talk about how do we prepare ourselves, our mindset for a feedback conversation. How do we open the conversation well so that the other person has the

best chance of being able to listen, absorb, and act on it. And then, how do we navigate whatever comes next?

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Yes. Oh, I'm excited to dive in. Like jumping at the bit already.

Excellent. So let's start with how do we prepare ourselves? How do we have that right mindset going into a feedback conversation, Katie.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Yep. So I absolutely have experienced, believe, and now teach that fearless feedback is where you can say what needs to be said without damaging the relationship, and that happens when you are operating at a powerful intersection. So, listeners, imagine a Venn diagram where you have three components of mindset, relationship, and delivery. And when you are at a strong intersection of your head is in the game, you are preserving your relationship. You have built a strong foundation of relationship first, and then you're thinking about trust and safety in that

interaction, and then you wordsmith and you refine your delivery. That's where you get to have a fearless feedback conversation. But it starts with the mindset. If you're thinking, "Oh, I have to have this conversation, or "Okay, I gotta walk on eggshells because they have a lot going on, and I don't know if they can handle it. If that's where your brain is at, your conversation you're going to lack conviction and confidence in your message. So it has to start with, oh, let me pivot how I'm thinking, which is, I have information that's going to help this person be their best. Ooh! All of a

sudden, that feels like a different conversation you're stepping into.

That's coming from a much different intention. Let me repeat for listeners the intersection you just talked about: the intersection of mindset, the mindset we, as the feedback givers, are bringing to the conversation the relationship, so focus on building a strong relationship over time. But I'm also hearing, like in that moment, how do you have an intention for trust and safety, and then delivery? Spend a little time on the wordsmith. We're going to spend a little bit of time today talking about how do we wordsmith that opening. Okay, so I've got some information to help the

person be their best.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: And generally speaking, of in the world of feedback and manager training and leadership books, when it comes to feedback, everything it's like beating a dead horse. Of here's why feedback is important. Here's why. Here's why, and we don't talk about how. Well, then when we do talk about how, it's only how do I say this? Well, if you're missing the wait, I believe in them and I want them to succeed, and your mindset is rather in a place of, oh, they're going to get defensive, or if I bring this up, this is going to hurt our relationship. It's not going to be a good

conversation. So mindset has to be the starting place.

I love that your fearless feedback book is now on the market, so people can get this really practical, tangible information about how and at all. I want to underscore. You said the words "believe in them, Katie. I really believe this. I think we've all had a leader who seemingly said and did the right things, but we didn't. It didn't hit right for us. It didn't land. We didn't believe it because it felt like it was performative.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Yes,

they're doing the behaviors, but is it coming from an authentic, genuine place? So just finding what do you believe in about this person, and I mean, sometimes someone's been messing up, and we have to give them some constructive feedback, and we might be like, "Oh, they have been doing some not smart things recently, but what can we believe? Right, we believe this is a capable person. We believe this is a person that can change. We believe they have good intentions. We believe something. Find the something positive that you believe about them to anchor on going into the

conversation.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Yep, and that then also strengthens your relationship. So that's again of mindset relationship delivery. Is that if you are if your mindset is they're not capable, they're not good, they're not right for the role. If you if that's your mindset, well, your relationship they're going to feel your lack of investment in

them, and they will

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: feel that you are checking the boxes, but that you aren't genuinely there to say, you know what? I believe you're more capable than what you're doing right now, and I want to set you up for more success. So that is then speaking to building trust and safety within the relationship as well,

beautiful. So find the positive, authentic things that you can believe and ground your mindset. And regardless, that first thing you said, this is information to help the person be better.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: That's all it is. Being focused on that rather than I'm so concerned about what the reaction is going to be. Well, and we start to tell a story too. That when we, you know, right of like we've got our comfort zone here, we get out of our comfort zone, and the stories start to to spin. Where then we start telling ourselves of, oh, you know what, they don't have a growth mindset, so they're not going to receive this feedback well. Or, you know what, I've already given this feedback, and it didn't do anything. So you know what? This is my first rodeo. I'm not going to.

I'm like, why was my time? So now you're telling these stories that are now, when you get to that delivery, your delivery is going to suck,

and you are

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: going to feel like

you again

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: had this conversation that didn't go anywhere. Well, didn't go anywhere because you already thought it wasn't going to go anywhere, and for your relationship, they're like, "You don't care about me,

so it becomes that self fulfilling prophecy. Exactly,

I love it, Katie. Let me pause us here because we're going to get more into the how to. Yes, let me tell listeners more about you, Katie O'Brien Cesarini is a developer of people. She has two decades of experience leading, managing, and training teams. Katie runs endurance management coaching, partnering with organizations like eBay, Munchkin, Vital Farms, and Pan Communications to develop their managers and leaders. Earlier this year, she published fearless feedback. Everything managers have never been taught about feedback, a practical guide that equips managers for the development and

performance conversations that HR professionals depend on them to have. Thank you so much for being here to share your experience and your expertise and your evidence-proven frameworks for us today.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Absolutely. Well, when I set out to on this project of writing a book, of you know, really, it was gosh, we aren't taught what to do when someone has personal life challenges, and it's seeping into their work. We're not taught what to do after the conversation. Should we follow up? Do we need a document? We're not taught what to do when someone cries when we give them feedback. All of these things. We're not taught how to ask for feedback and actually get good feedback. So I want I wanted to deal with things a little bit differently and give people a very practical

guide that they can flip open and say, "Okay, that's what I'm facing. Okay, let me read. Okay, now I have greater confidence and competence to go try.

It's been needed for way too long, Katie. Where should we go next? I mean, you just mentioned a few things. Like we don't talk about like what happens if people have personal issues. What do we do afterwards? What if we do if someone cries? Should we talk about how to handle the difficult emotional reactions that one? Get because that often is what stops people from moving forward with the conversation they know they need and want to have.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Yes. So

how do we deal with a quote unquote bad reaction?

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Yep. So a couple of things. Of one is it's still rooted in the fearless feedback frame. So we still have mindset to be thinking about. We still have relationship to be thinking about, and then we still have delivery to think about.

Okay.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: So, if I were working with you, Amy, and I gave you feedback, and you know, I'll model model the framework, the headline observation ask framework first, and let's say that you give me a big reaction, you push back. We'll just do a real time play with it. So if I came to you and said, Amy, I want to set you up for greater success. I'm seeing an opportunity for you to reevaluate prioritization. What I'm noticing is a pattern of when you have conflicting priorities on your plate that you can freeze and periodically be working on the activity or the project that

isn't the highest priority. So I want to work with you on what does it look like to reevaluate how you're prioritizing what's on your plate. So let's say imagine I gave you that feedback, and you were like, "No, I don't. This is your fault, Katie. You didn't prioritize. You're giving me

too much. I'm prioritizing it the best I can over here.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Yes. So when you get whatever that reaction is, whether it's tears, silence, complacency, denial, defensiveness, whatever the reaction is, this next framework still works, and it's then it's called hear, which is so hearing them,

yeah,

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: communicating what what you see, exploring, acknowledging, and then refocusing. So I might say to you, then I might say, so Amy, let's pause here. I'm noticing this sparked a reaction for you.

Okay,

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: tell me what's running through your mind, and then you're going to give me more excuses. You're going to point the finger. You're going to throw. I'm overwhelmed. You're going to too much

for too long. You're not gatekeeping some of this. You're overwhelming

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: us. Yep. And you, as the manager in that moment, now your mindset needs to be, it could be. Oh, she's blaming me. What a jerk. Okay, that mindset's not going to help. No, nope,

nope. Time back to mindset.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: So instead, you need to step into a okay. There's only space for one person to be emotional, and that's not me right now. And I still have a message to deliver because there is still no matter how much truth there is that maybe I could be gatekeeping better, maybe I could be doing X Y Z better. There's still truth in there's something I need you to be doing better.

Okay.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: So mindset and then relationship of I need to keep you safe. I need you to know a pack of bears is not running after you, so my body language and my communication needs to send that message. So that's why when I say of hey, let's pause here, I'm noticing that this is sparking a reaction. Tell me what's running through your mind. Part of that is safety and trust, where let me give you the floor. Let me you you share with me, and then so you share. Okay, more finger pointing. Okay, and then now my delivery comes in where I get to acknowledge and say that's fair.

You're right. It's fair for you to feel this way. And what's also true is there's an opportunity to be evaluating how you're prioritizing the work on your plate?

Ah,

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: and there's that refocus.

And and and it is not

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: either or. We get to live in the and. This is where courage comes in, and this is where a most of us are not taught this. B we don't get to see this modeled, so most of us haven't seen fantastic leaders modeling it with us. So we then, and it takes courage because there's an option. There's totally an option to ignore it, and that's what most managers do, and most leaders do. Of in their gut, they in their head, they're like, "Oh yeah, they're not liking this.

This is not going well. Abort. Oh, not going well.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Yeah, and they try and end the conversation as quickly as possible, but the courageous leader gets into that here framework that is, hey, let's pause here. I'm noticing, you know, say what you're noticing, explore, give them the floor, acknowledge of yeah, validate their experience, validate their feelings, and what also remains true is that we can do it differently moving forward.

Lovely, Katie. I love the acronym. First of all, like here, like you're here for it in the moment, and also here with your listeners.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Like

what's going on? Hearing, exploring, acknowledging, refocusing, and also take your time with that, right? Like you're kicking out a question during the exploring, taking the time to acknowledge their experience, and you're refocusing. I think often we're rushing to that refocus and not doing the H E A,

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: and what's also really important in this process is to acknowledge that the reaction you are witnessing may or may not be the same reaction that they are experiencing internally. So,

okay,

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: in my book, I I share a story of when my former manager Bridget, I was 22 years old. She pulled me aside and said, "Katie, I just want to give you feedback to let you know that the other directors in in the center feel like you're defensive when they approach you. I immediately said, "No, I'm not. So she would have described me as, "Oh, well, Katie gets defensive when she receives feedback. Do I know what's happening internally?

Yeah,

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: internally, I was. What do you mean? I didn't meet expectations. I'm so embarrassed that you are having this conversation with me. I can't. I'm so let down by Myself, and so many of us work with high achievers who a can relate to that, but b we're managing and leading other high performers. That I was the a student who had never been told that she didn't do something well, and that here I was entering the workforce, and someone was telling me I didn't do something as so. What you're

hearing might be covering up something.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Yes,

and that's just what's coming out, or the expression

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: totally, and that's where requiring the courage to not bypass the reaction and to not take the reaction at face value, and view that a reaction to feedback is an entry point to strengthen your relationship.

Yeah, yeah. So

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: in that moment, again, the mindset of okay, what I'm seeing is not likely what they're internally experiencing. Okay, I'm not going to label them as a defensive person. We're going to say in this moment we're having a feeling of defensiveness

that helps us not take it as personally. Yes,

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: which then strengthens the relationship. Ah, yes. Then you're like, it's not about me. It's about hold on. This is an opportunity because I had an observation to help you be your best. Now I'm seeing that this is this is triggering something. This maybe is a thorn in your side, and now how do we partner together to work through it? Because then when we work through it, we are both better on the other side.

Yes,

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: that's the power of feedback, and that's where when everyone else out there is talking about why feedback is important, and then failing to talk about how to do it, we're missing on strengthening performance, strengthening development, strengthening engagement of the people that we work with.

Absolutely. Before we leave the here acronym, yes, I want to ask another question about acknowledge.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Yes,

because when we were doing our little role play example here, you use the words for acknowledge. That is fair, right? Something like that is fair. I might be doing. I'm doing that. What if in the moment the leader does not agree, but we want to acknowledge? Then are we acknowledging their perspective? We're acknowledging their feelings. We're acknowledging like like that's a fair perspective.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: That's exactly it. So the words that I tend to use in my style is I can appreciate that's your experience, or I can appreciate that's the way that you're viewing the situation, or I can appreciate that that's the way that you experienced it. So what I don't want to do is diminish them or gaslight them and say no, that's not your experience. Like no, it's their experience. Whether I agree with it or not is not up for debate. Nor is this the time to debate it.

That this is a conversation about there's an opportunity for someone to do something better, faster, help them grow, whatever it might be, and they're having a reaction. If there is a fundamental misalignment in how you're working together or something else, that might be a follow-up conversation. That might be another entry point.

Okay.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: But in this moment, I often talk about it as a tennis match, where what can happen is someone says, "Well, can you give me an example of that? Well, then they give an example, and they're like, "Well, I did that because, and you're like, "Well, and now you're in this. You're getting no." I often say to people, and I mention in the book, of assume it's all true. Assume it's all true for the sake of the the conversation. For the sake of the conversation, oh, that's

powerful.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Assume it's true because what you're trying to do is influence performance, skill, and or behavior, and getting into a match, tennis match, back and forth in this

conversation is not the conversation for that. It's not going to serve the intention of the conversation. And I do want to reiterate that we can hear, we can understand, we can see, we can acknowledge another person's perspective.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Yes,

without wholeheartedly agreeing

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: with it. Yes, because then it might be of okay. Get to the other side of this conversation. Right, you refocus them. You then get back into the framework of headline observation ask, where the ask is about then generating action and putting your coaching hat on to say, okay, what does it look like to make progress here? What ideas do you have helping them? And you're ultimately co-creating actions for them to know how to make progress within this area of feedback. Yep. So you get when you get on the other side of that conversation, then let it sit, and

maybe it's you know the next day if there's something that you're like it's fundamentally you're misaligned, then maybe the next day when they're not feeling like a bear's chasing them, when they're not in fight flight or freeze mode, then maybe it's a follow up conversation of like hey you know what I want to get curious. There was something that you mentioned our conversation yesterday, and I think it'd be really valuable if you and I revisited, because my sense is we have an opportunity to realign to strengthen the way that we work together.

Nice, but again,

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: that comes back to you need courage to do it, but also if you don't have courage as a leader, you're not showing up as effectively as you can and should be,

and listen. So many people get afraid of going into the touchy landscape, but like what people are thinking and feeling, and the touchy stuff is out there, right? If you have a conversation about it, then you at least have a chance of shifting it. If not, it stays and festers

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: in assumptions. You start to work off of assumptions versus working in clarity. The assumptions kill you, and I oftentimes will use an analogy. I'll, you know, when I have a group of managers, I'll say, "Okay, how many of you wish that on your first date with your partner, you knew their pet peeves. Oh yeah, yeah. Or did you like to have figured it out? Or or or did you enjoy the process of 510, years of figuring out, navigating, assuming when you could have just asked right of doing,

Katie? I love this. I love when new leader team member relationships when they have conversations about here's my style, here's my pet peeve, here's how I prefer to communicate, here's how I do not want to make decisions. You know, they just get all of that laid out there.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: That's literally chapter three of three is relationship. the relationship kickoff conversation, the reset conversation, and even the conversation where you're now managing your former peers?

Oh yeah, that's a tricky.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: How? What do you need to get out on the table to say of hey, you know what? Our relationship has shifted. Hey, let's talk about what are the things that we want to do maybe differently, better. It's that important. The whole chapter on that.

Awesome. One more one more thing I want to bring up before we leave this conversation around dealing with reactions. I think it can be really easy when someone gets defensive, someone gets upset, someone gets angry over there to be like, "Okay, go to the here acronym. But you also said when you're seeing compliance or complacency or like, like kind of like like that, they're passively acquiescing, but you know they're actually not agreeing.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Yeah, I

just wanted to underscore here that like we also use the hear,

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: yes

acronym in those situations.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Yes, right. Like

I'm sensing, right?

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: A nugget I share in the book is that I had someone in my training course that she said she was like, I received feedback, and what he saw was a smile and a head head nodding. What was happening internally? I was shooting death daggers at him. I was like, "Oh, girl, okay. So yes, so you, one of the things I talk about often is that your gut is not wrong. You said. Something, and I firmly believe that leaders don't use their intuition enough in their interactions. So, if your intuition is, I think they're falsely agreeing with me. Yeah, that's what your gut is

telling you. Check. Then, yeah, then I would, you know, if you were giving me kind of a a smile and a nod, and I was doubting it. I would say to you, of, hey, Amy, you know, let's pump the brakes here. My sense is your brain is doing a little bit more thinking than maybe you're sharing at this moment. So,

what a great neutral observation way to say it.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: No, tell me what's truly running through your mind as you're hearing my message today.

Yeah.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Now imagine you then say, No, no, no. It's totally fine. No, I get it. Yeah, yeah, good. I, in my style, again going back to mindset, relationship delivery. So my mindset is, no, I have a job to do. This is something that's going to help her. I can't abandon ship yet. Relationship. She's not trusting me to be honest, so there is a gap that might our relationship might be at risk. And then delivery of I need to be mindful of how I now say this next thing. So I might say to you, Amy, with the greatest trust and respect and investment in our relationship, I don't believe

you. I think there's something more there, and I want to give you permission to truly share what might be running through your mind. And if now isn't the moment, then I'd love to to revisit this with you. Maybe after you processed, maybe you and I can check in tomorrow. But I want you to know, you don't have to agree. I was

pretending I was actually on the receiving end of that, Katie, and I was like, yeah, I feel like the worst thing I could do right now is just ask for some time to process what's in my head. Like, can you just give me some space? Can we talk tomorrow?

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Yep. And that's why. Then going back to, or I guess, let me pause for a quick second. That's why going back to the fearless feedback framework. Okay, mindset. I'm not giving up. Relationship. I need to repair. I need to keep her safe. And then delivery of I'm delivering it kindly and directly. So that's where you can say anything that needs to be said while preserving your relationship. But if you don't yet have that strong foundation of relationship stemming from that relationship kickoff conversation, because ideally you would have talked about and would have

known that maybe you're someone that needs to process.

Yeah,

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: that's something of you need to lean into that, and it's like you know that that relationship kickoff conversation. Yeah, you want to avoid the mystery of like, don't give me a crystal ball, give me a roadmap. Yeah, how to work with you, and that's that's what that conversation does, and that's how it then makes handling reactions, sharing feedback more broadly makes it easier and less daunting and more effective.

When I watch people figure all this out over time, I'm like, there are some shortcuts, right? You can't talk about all of this, and I love as you're talking about all of this, Katie, that you keep tying your examples back to the mindset, relationship, delivery pieces. Hopefully, this is helping folks embed that framework in their minds. Okay, I do want to come back. You mentioned headline observation ask is our flow for the delivery. We'll probably only have time today for the first part, but I think that's like lots of times if we can get those initial sentences out of our

mouths with good intention, then we can set up a constructive, productive conversation. Help us with the headline, Katie.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Yep. So the headline is your opener of the conversation. A strong headline sends a message of good intent.

Good is

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: focused on their self interests.

They're with them. Yeah.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Asks permission.

Okay.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: And names what you want to talk about?

Ah, oh, it's not a mystery. It's not a

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: mystery. What? Yes. Some sample headlines. Let me. I'll throw some out. So

love it.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: So Amy, I I'm noticing something that I think can take your work to the next level. Do you have a couple of minutes to talk about stakeholder management. That's the headline. So I'll give another of Amy. I want to set you up for success so that you are continuing to elevate in your career because I know it's important to you, and I want to talk about communication and collaboration. Do you have a couple minutes?

Yeah, the what you want to talk about, the asking for some time, right, and and starting off with that intention. I'm always hearing like what's possible for the other person.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Yep,

the other person,

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: and far too many folks when they approach feedback, lead with what they need from them or what the business needs from them, and when you get frustrated that people aren't implementing feedback, then you need to pause and consider. Well, did they see what was in it for them? So if I come to you and said, "So, Amy, I need you to adjust the way that you're working with stakeholders because the business needs blah blah blah, you're like checked out in that conversation. Now you're feeling attacked.

Stuff needed from me. Yep.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: But if I'm coming at you and saying, "Hey, you know what? I know having an impact is really important to you, and I'm seeing a way for you to have greater impact with how you engage with stakeholders. Do you have a few minutes? Now you're like, "Sure, I do, I sure do, because I want to hear this because I am invested in having more impact. So now I'm speaking your language, and the byproduct is I and the business are going to get what we want from you, but I have your buy-in. But now going back to mindset, relationship, and delivery of if your mindset is no,

they're not going to have an impact, and your relationship is no, I really don't care, and I'm not invested in them. Well, then your delivery, it's not going to be genuine.

Absolutely.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: So it has to start with those other two components.

Katie, you have given us so much valuable, real practical content to hold on. Thank

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: you. The

mindset, the relationship delivery-you brought that to life for us in a number of ways. Go into the conversation, the headline, the observation, the ask, and what's in that headline is so critical. Good intentions, their interests. Ask permission. Name what you want to talk about, and then we get a reaction.

Yeah,

that we're not loving, so we're here for it, and we hear, hearing, exploring, acknowledging, refocusing.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: If there is

a leader listening, and they're like, I am not doing fearless feedback in the ways that Katie and Amy were just talking about. Where do they start?

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Start with just noticing what you are saying to yourself about these conversations,

right?

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: And it is a practice of strengthening your mindset. So

I see that

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: I had a group. I did a Q and A with a team of managers that read Fearless Feedback, and one of the first questions posed was, "How do you get better at? And he was like, "I get it. Chapter two is mindset, but what if you still struggle with that? And I said it's a practice. So you might not control your first reaction. Maybe your first reaction is dread. You are now at choice of how long you sit in that dread and the extent to which you let that dread drive your behavior and your action. So make a better second choice, right? And that's really the starting place.

And I had another another manager. I was doing a workshop for managers as coaches, and she and I said, "Of well, your first step is you have to believe they're capable. If you don't believe your people are capable, guess what? Self-fulfilling prophecy. So start with the mindset piece and ask of if you are constantly thinking they aren't good enough, they aren't equipped, they this that the other. Guess what? You're right. So that that would be the starting place that I would I would wish for all leaders,

notice what you're saying to yourself. I love that as a starting place, Katie, and I love what you said about it because it's not like our thoughts are going to be perfectly pure all the time. Our brains are trying to protect

us, so

there's some negative stuff that goes on there, right? So it's not perfect, but it's noticing and choosing to shift and not live in the dread or the negative, disempowering perspectives. Yet, what do you want to choose to believe so that you can have an authentic conversation?

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Yep,

Katie, so much value. Thank you for sharing. Thank you. This was fun. Us, yes. I feel like we

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: can talk for hours and hours, and of course, no one wants hours and hours. But

well, there's so much here, right? And it's obvious how much you care, and you've got your real examples of what you have been observing and shifting in the folks that you work with. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Katie O’Brien Ceccarini: Thank you.

Thank you for listening to the Courage of a Leader podcast. If you'd like to further explore this episode's topic, please reach out to me through the Courage of a Leader website at www.courageofaleader.com. I'd love to hear from you. Please take the time to leave a review on iTunes. That helps us expand our reach and get more people fully stepping into their leadership potential. Until next time, be bold and be brave because you've got the courage of a leader.